Transcript

Jan Winhall:
So we’re talking today about therapy and safety, big words these days. Some people find that word safety a little overwhelming. But let’s see if we can just pause a little bit and get a sense of how comfortable it would be to slow things down a little bit in your body.

Maybe feel your feet on the floor. See if it feels okay to just take a little bit of a deeper breath, inviting that connection a little bit deeper inside. And iit’s always really interesting to notice how comfortable it feels to come a little bit closer to a slowing down place and then inside place. And sometimes it just does not feel safe to do that. So that’s okay. You just listen to the nervous system. Might wanna slow it down a little bit more and look at something in the room that attracts you. Just really giving ourselves a moment.

And then I noticed for some of you that it feels really natural now to just close your eyes and bring your attention inside. And, you know, that’s great too. It’s all just fine. However close we can be to our inside selves is just fine. We’re gonna explore where Trevor goes with his people in therapy and as a coach. And the little that I know of Trevor’s work, I really like. So I think we’re in for a good rich dialogue together. We’re just taking that inside in whatever way feels comfortable for you.

Okay. Slowly coming back into the group and just taking a moment to see each other, our friendly faces. Hello, Claudia. Claudia’s gonna do a demo with me next week for a PESI course. That should be fun. Yeah. A live demo. I love doing those.

Yeah. Hello, everybody. Okay. So, Rachan, will you spotlight, Trevor and I? You can see my Christmas tree. There we go. Perfect. So, Trevor, you’re in Spain.

Trevor Rocca:
Yeah.

Jan Winhall:
But you also work in Dubai. Right?

Trevor Rocca:
Oh, well, I’m I’m actually sort of, I think I couldn’t consider to be commuting from the Middle East to Europe and back. I’m traveling a lot with work. I will I’ve just got back from Vienna this morning. I’ll be in Albania next week, so it’s been quite busy. It’s quite exciting as well.

Jan Winhall:
Yeah. So where do you wanna start? I noticed that you’re a therapist and a coach.

Trevor Rocca:
Yes. So my story is quite interesting because I actually started as a personal trainer.

Jan Winhall:
Oh, I get that

Trevor Rocca:
When…. I look somewhat okay…. When I was 25. I started thinking about, what can I do to look after myself? And so I did a course of personal training, and then I found myself with clients. And one of the things I noticed was irregardless of whether they changed the way they looked, that sort of deep sense sadness and the dysregulation, what we know now, dysregulation not back then, was still very, very, very present. So, I  became very curious about that. I was like, okay. What can I do in this space? I wanted to support my clients from a from a personal perspective, but also from a professional perspective coming altogether. I was brought up in Gibraltar, and Gibraltar is very warm. It’s very sort of family orientated.

Jan Winhall:
Oh, in Gibraltar. Okay. I wonder if you were brought I’ve been to Gibraltar, actually.

Trevor Rocca:
Have you?

Jan Winhall:
I think I when… I think I was 20.

Trevor Rocca:
So it’s changed a lot.

Jan Winhall:
We went to Morocco and…

Trevor Rocca:
Amazing. Yeah. So yeah. Jabal is very small, very sort of family, very village mentality sort of thing, and, everyone gets to know who you are professionally, but also personally. So coming from from that background, I really wanted to push the limits of what I can offer to my clients. So having spent many, many years as a personal trainer, then stepped into the coaching world. I did a a call, like, communication with the ICF, I think it’s called. Okay. I started providing the service of of a coach plus doing the personal training together.

So everything was coming together. I was providing the physical side. I also providing sort of the goal setting side of of of coaching. But, again, I found myself in the same predicament. My clients were still having a great life and really enjoying life, but with that deep sense of sadness, not being able to move on from it. And that’s where I think I became very curious again about, Basil’s work, Peter’s work, Peter Levine.

And really went into that space and really get to know what’s actually going on. And everything all the all the roles went to Rome, and Rome was the Polyvagal and the Vegas now, and the sense of safety and connection. Yeah. So, obviously, being a a nonacademic as I am, I find myself reading many books of many of many authors and finding a practice now that I, am very proud of. I’m an EMDR therapist.

I’m doing a master’s in neuroscience and psychology mental health now. In order to be able to understand the neurobiology of trauma, I’m really interested in that. So, yes, I’ve been able to support my clients in various ways, but the the most important thing I feel for me is the sense of safety I provide. The how I show up, how authentic I am, and and that allows them to feel safe, I think.

Jan Winhall:
How you show up?

Trevor Rocca:
How I show up. I’ve got a you. Yeah. So I got a sense of, I’ve got a sort of a leo approach, which which is I call it self disclosure therapy.

Jan Winhall:
Yeah. Self disclosure therapy!

Trevor Rocca:
Yeah. So on not all sessions about my about my clients. Some sessions with my clients are about the relationship we have together. And I think that’s vital in order to to create the safety they need, and also I need as a therapist to be able to explore their world.

Jan Winhall:
Yeah. So that that’s really important. Let’s say that again. So the safety that you need

Trevor Rocca:
They need.

Jan Winhall:
as well as what they need… that you need in order to explore their world.

Trevor Rocca:
Yes.

Jan Winhall:
Yeah. Yeah. So it’s so interesting, you know, because years ago when I was first training, self disclosure was, like, a real no no. There you go. You didn’t talk about your own needs as a therapist, you know? You don’t have any needs. You’re focusing on the client, right?

Trevor Rocca:
Yeah. You’re a robot, aren’t you?

Jan Winhall:
And so more and more, we’re we’re moving towards this beautiful model that’s so polyvagal informed about coregulation, that what we need and what we know about ourselves and how how we understand ourselves as human beings is just as important in that relationship that we’re making together.

Trevor Rocca:
Totally. And I like, we we know this. Most of our, sort of most of our relationship is based on the nonverbal side of it Yeah. And how I show up, what energy I bring into the room. And, many times, actually, my clients know this. I’m sure some of them are connected. They know that sometimes I’ll be like, let me just take a second. It’s been a really tough day for me.

Let me just say let me land. Let’s land together, and let’s just start together. And that allows them also to feel the sense of safety in terms of how they come into a session. Remember, our sessions are highly dysregulating at times, so they are already I’ve got a client of mine that will start the night before feeding the session of the next day. So she’ll come into a space where she’s completely dysregulated. So for us to find that safe space for both of us is crucial in order to be able to explore that area of her life that we need to tap into in order for her to live a fulfilled, a more fulfilled life.

Jan Winhall:
Beautiful. Yeah. And so by doing that, by saying I need a minute, they’re also modeling

Trevor Rocca:
Totally. And this is the the language.

Jan Winhall:
how we do this. This is how I do this for myself, and I need to do this for myself in order to be here for you.. Like a good parent.

Trevor Rocca:
Like a good parent. And this is a very valuable point you’ve just raised. I actually sometimes think, and I think I’ve shared this with you before, it’s like we we might be the first healthy relationship they have. And within that healthy relationship, there needs to be an element of rupture and repair.

Jan Winhall:
Because it’s real.

Trevor Rocca:
Precisely. Right? And and is he, first of all, is my therapist human? Secondly, is he just saying this, but he wants me as a client? Whereas when you become quite challenging and there’s elements of rupture and then healthy repairs, not only are they seeing for the first time, experienced for the first time a healthy repair, but also they’re seeing that you’re not just there because she’s a client or he’s a client and they’re paying the money. Because you’re you’re challenging, and it’s challenging for you too, and you show up in a way that is completely authentic. Yes. We might have a bit no more knowledge on on the attachment issues and the EMDR as a but we’re human.

Jan Winhall:
Yeah.

Trevor Rocca:
Ultimately, we’re human.

Jan Winhall:
We need to have something more in order to offer something that’s going to feel substantial. Right? We need to be a little step ahead in some ways in order to be able to offer that that more grounded place for a person to bring all of the stuff and have it be held.

Trevor Rocca:
Yeah. I think, like I said, I come back to the same thing constantly, which is how safe do I feel within the therapeutic relationship.

Jan Winhall:
Mhmm.

Trevor Rocca:
And I’ll share with my clients. Well, today, I’m at 6. I’m a 7. And the client might ask me even ask me, why do you think the ON is 6 and a 7? That allows the client to also explore where they’re at. I think that there is a, unwritten rule that they should show up our sessions, willing to explore everything, and sort of very sort of Tony Robbins. I’m here. And and and I actually think that sometimes it’s okay just to sit and I say, well, well, let’s just let’s just see where we go with this.

Jan Winhall:
Yeah. And also to say, I really didn’t wanna come today to therapy because I’m tired, and I don’t feel like working on that stuff. That’s all okay too. Right?

Trevor Rocca:
Yeah.

Jan Winhall:
So you know, let’s just maybe imagine that we could be with the tired and give it a little bit of comfort.

Trevor Rocca:
Absolutely. And that’s where the parts work comes in, doesn’t it? And I’ve got it’s funny because I’ve got here, my therapy practice, it’s basically in my living room. I’ve got a little chair that sees to the ocean. I’m living in the south of Spain, which helps. But I’ve got little toys. So when they come in with this regulator, I’ll give them a small toy, like a piano or something, and they’ll be for 3, 10 minutes playing with it, and then they’ll be like, okay.

I feel like much better now. They’ve sort of connected to that playful side of themselves, that child.. That allows them to be landing within the session as well. That’s why my sessions normally do not last 50 minutes. They last an hour and 20, an hour and 30 minutes because there’s so much prep work before we actually go into the stuff and resourcing, as I call it, the EMDR. That when when they get into a session, we are 45 minutes in. So it’s a long session.

Trevor Rocca:
Yeah.

Jan Winhall:
Yeah. That’s a long session.

Trevor Rocca:
Mhmm.

Jan Winhall:
You must be tired after.

Trevor Rocca:
Of course. And I voice that. And I’ll be like, okay. This is or when I obviously, for the viewers, I actually, travel with my clients, and I sometimes live with a client for 6 months. So I’m seeing them on a regular basis, like 3, 4 hours a day. That’s sort of the, that’s the approach I take. But they see their humans my human side, which is if I’m living in the same apartment like them, they’ll see me at 11 o’clock at night making myself a cup of tea.

Jan Winhall:
Tell me more.

Trevor Rocca:
Yeah. So my approach

Jan Winhall:
How did you develop that?

Trevor Rocca:
Okay. So this is very, very interesting. I was in London at the time, and I got called by a client in Dubai. So, Trevor, I really need you. I’m very dysregulated. Not the words, but that’s what he meant. And I said, look. Do you wanna come over? And I said, okay. Fine. I’ll come over for a couple of days. Where do I stay? And he said, no. You can stay in my apartment. I think, well, you know, that’s not ethical enough. You know, I don’t wanna break this the boundaries of of what we’re doing. I’ll stay in a hotel. After 3 days, he said, Trev, do you mind staying for 2 weeks? I was like, you know what? Let me just stay in Dubai for 2 weeks. Why not?

So we were doing a lot of work on a daily basis. And then I noticed I was spending, like, 6 hours with him, 7 hours with him in the day doing a lot of therapy. But most of the therapy wasn’t even therapy in itself. It was more work of regulation, training with him, physically training with him, going to the gym, going for walks with him.

Jan Winhall:
Oh. Oh.

Trevor Rocca:
Like, the whole shebang sort of thing. It was extremely valuable when he said to me, how would you feel instead of me going to a rehab center, to clinic, if I were to hire you for 3 months? Because I think it’ll be extremely useful for the work that we’ve already done in terms of the sense of safety

Jan Winhall:
hmm

Trevor Rocca:
that I think I can really get to this space of of of recovery. And I went back to my therapist, my supervisor, and I said, listen. This is happening. What do I do? And he said, what do you feel? And I said, I feel like I can actually do this. And that’s how it started. So I got my first client. Word-of-mouth went around and ended up doing contracts. And I’m extremely lucky that most of my clients or some of my clients have been, in recovery.

And, I think I saw a one of your podcasts with Steven, which is, you said it was, we are in a perpetual state of shifting. And once we understand that addiction, at least from my perspective, it’s just a strategy to survive. But if there’s a deeper rooted, trauma there, once we get to that and we change our behaviors in the present moment, we’ll be able to sort of come out of it. And that’s what I’ve been practicing. I’m really, I like to say this, you inspired me so much in that sense.

Jan Winhall:
Oh. I didn’t know that.

Trevor Rocca:
Yeah. There’s so much power on not calling it a disease, at least from my perspective.

Jan Winhall:
That it’s adaptive.

Trevor Rocca:
Yeah.

Jan Winhall:
It’s an adaptive strategy when you don’t feel safe.

Trevor Rocca:
Precisely. And that strategy could have changed. You know what I’ve noticed? With my clients, they often fall into addiction at the later stage in their life. But the the sort of the the early stages, again addiction bringing up in other things, whether it’s training 4 hours a day, 6 hours a day, whether it’s eating pizza 5 times a week. It could be anything. But what we highlight is the those strategies to survive keep on developing as we develop as human beings. Right?

Jan Winhall:
So that’s a really interesting kind of we could say, a real polyvagal informed

Trevor Rocca:
Yeah.

Jan Winhall:
way of working with people in terms of really focusing on the coregulation. Not 1 hour a week, but sometimes several hours a day.

Trevor Rocca:
A day. Yes. And most of the and most of the time, as my clients know, we are not necessarily tapping into trauma. And this is a question I’m researching myself now. And I’ll ask this question to you, actually, what you think of this question. Can we process trauma from a point of regulation rather than direct intervention?

Jan Winhall:
Give me an example.

Trevor Rocca:
So I had a client of mine that came to me, was living with me for 3 months. One of the points was, his mom had passed away at the age of 15. He was 31. And I said, Trevor, I feel like I still haven’t let go of this. So okay. So we started doing the work, but we never tapped into, excuse me, the mom. After 3 months, I said to him, we’ve done the work, but we haven’t tapped into the main issue that you came. And he actually said to me, Trev, I feel like I’ve processed that.

So the question is, do we have to do direct intervention into the emotion, like a dentist going for a bad tooth?

Jan Winhall:
Yeah.

Trevor Rocca:
Or do you think that through sustained or prolonged states of regulation from from a neurobiological perspective, do you think that trauma can be resolved?

Jan Winhall:
I think I do. Because think about it. There are many people who go through horrendously traumatic experiences. They don’t have psychotherapy. And some of those people go on and live a really good life.

Trevor Rocca:
Mhmm. And do you think that’s because of they finding a way of regulating themselves?

Jan Winhall:
I think they must have have have found loving relationships. So, yes, a way of regulating.

Trevor Rocca:
I like that.

Jan Winhall:
And I think they found and I don’t think it has to be direct in the sense of finding the experience of being validated.

Trevor Rocca:
Yeah.

Jan Winhall:
That they they like, what we we would always say is that you don’t have to go to every little horrible thing that happened. And we used to do that 40 years ago. We thought that’s what you had to do. Yeah. Now we know the most important thing is to to just be able to understand the meaning of what happened to you, to put it into a context where it makes sense.

Trevor Rocca:
Well, I love that word. I think the word context is coming coming up a lot in I state right now in terms of, what’s the context? What’s happening?

Jan Winhall:
Exactly, But, again, very polyvagal. Right?

Trevor Rocca:
Yeah. Absolutely.

Jan Winhall:
Because if the context, you know, when you understand the context for addiction, for example

Trevor Rocca:
Yeah.

Jan Winhall:
addiction makes sense.

Trevor Rocca:
Totally. This is what I often say is it Im I’m glad that you you stepped into that. Like, if that was your the your way to survive.

Jan Winhall:
It’s right.

Trevor Rocca:
Yes. We now understand that that’s completely maladaptive. Therefore, we need to change that. We need to resolve that.

Jan Winhall:
Now.

Trevor Rocca:
I’m grateful the fact that you took that line because now you’re here. Now you get to do the work.

Jan Winhall:
Oh, something

Trevor Rocca:
What happened?

Jan Winhall:
I don’t know. Rachan, something very bizarre just happened. Can you see it?

Trevor Rocca:
I can now. Hey. I’m back.

Rachan:
I’m not sure. It was probably a AI hack or something…. who knows, haha!

Trevor Rocca:
Thanks, God. Rachan.

Jan Winhall:
That was like weird.

Jan Winhall:
But you know what’s really interesting about that? My one of my first things at first, it was like shock. Like, what happened? And then my body was so reassured when it wasn’t just happening to me.

Trevor Rocca:
Yeah. Of course.

Jan Winhall:
And we were in this together.

Trevor Rocca:
And it’s and it brings me back. This is quite an interesting, I was reading a book from, Brene Brown, and she said that at one point in her life, she was meant to catch a flight to watch a a a basketball game or something of her daughter, and she missed it. And she was with a work colleague, and she said I appreciated so much that my work colleague said to me, we are in this together. Yeah. And that allowed her nervous system to relax or to to regulate.

Jan Winhall:
But I think what you what I pick up from you is that that’s what you are able to create with your clients is this sense that we are in this together.

Trevor Rocca:
Totally. I think that’s one of the things that I am very keen on, particularly in therapy, is being reliable. It’s the most important. And I was extremely guilty of this when I started my practice as a personal trainer. I used to switch clients. I used to wake up late sometimes. It would.. it was a nightmare.

Without understanding really back then, the level of dysregulation that was causing to my clients throughout the day to the point I used to reach out to them in the evening and say, hey. I’m sorry. I missed a session this morning. And they were like, yeah. You know, it’s fine. I said, how was your day? Well, you know, I didn’t have a great day. And it all started from from this from this breakage of of saying I’m gonna meet someone I feel safe with. I’m already preparing myself for it.

And then he never showed up, so he broke that loyalty. And I’m never gonna forget this. I was once with a client, and she was running on the treadmill. And I said something, and she said, well, you’re very fickle. And I was like, what do you mean? And she was like, she explained the fact that I changed sessions and I moved sessions. So I have adopted a a very sort of, no crumbs. Yeah. This is my session. This is where I’m at. This is what I do, and I show up. And if I can’t show up because of life gets in the way Yeah. I’ll make sure for them to be supported from the distance at least.

Jan Winhall:
Yeah. Yeah. So let’s go back for a minute because I’m curious about this. How do you maintain your own personal boundaries when you’re living with a client.

Trevor Rocca:
So for me, my boundaries come from a from a place of authenticity, I think.

Jan Winhall:
Mhmm.

Trevor Rocca:
I show up completely as myself, whether it’s as a friend or as a therapist. I don’t, I try not to have judgment. We all do at times. But my own boundaries within the relationship with therapeutic alliance is being real And having honest conversations with

Jan Winhall:
So you know, let’s say you’re living with somebody

Trevor Rocca:
Yeah.

Jan Winhall:
you’re they’re in the same space that you work in,

Jan Winhall:
how do you protect your energy level, for example? Like, are you kind of available as a therapist 247?

Trevor Rocca:
Well, in my programs, I am. Yes. In my programs, I do. But I do this, and what I do is called deep decompression weeks. Now after, like, 3 months, I’ll go and spend a week somewhere really nice and just completely decompress within the the space, the boundaries that I create. They’re very strong boundaries, but very, very, compassionate boundaries.

Jan Winhall:
Okay. So tell me about the strength and the compassion.

Trevor Rocca:
So for me so I’ll give an example. I’ll be living with with a guy, and I’ll say 8 o’clock, we’re switching off. I’m gonna go into my room. I’ll do my stuff. You do your stuff. If we find ourselves in the living room having tea, obviously, we’re gonna have a conversation, but no therapy talk. Yeah. These are the strong boundaries I have.

And, also, I have a, I allow them to guide the therapy for the 1st 6 weeks. What time do you wanna wake up? Was because for them, they’re trying to land as well. We need to find them safety. What I find is after, like, 6 weeks, they’ll be saying, Trevor, why do we start earlier tomorrow? I’ll be like, okay. Great. Let’s just start on 9th. Or why don’t we go to gym at 8? Allowing them to have agency as well. Because very easy to….

Jan Winhall:
Sounds like you’re you’re bringing in your role in the gym as well.

Trevor Rocca:
Yeah. Totally. That’s what I do. Yes.

Jan Winhall:
So is this mostly, like, recovery coaching for folks that have

Trevor Rocca:
Not necessarily recovery. I think we’re all recovering from trauma.

Jan Winhall:
Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Trevor Rocca:
Some of them are rewarding traumas and and others are evasive, sort of aversion. So we’re all recovering from one way or another. I do bring the physical side of it because we need to bring feeling back to the body, and that’s the first thing I do. So the moment they sign on, the 1st week or the 1st week, the 1st couple of months, we’re in the gym every morning.

Jan Winhall:
Okay.

Trevor Rocca:
And bringing feeling back to the body because that’s probably the first thing they’ve lost in dissociation. So I bring

Jan Winhall:
And do you do that through the gym first?

Trevor Rocca:
Well, I got yoga, gym, meditation, and nature. I use nature. Obviously, I’m extremely lucky. I live in Spain, the south of Spain, and there’s oceans around. I got mountains, and I literally live on the beach. So, I use nature as a as a as a tool. And they be they, I feel they become quite dependent on the nature side of it and less on me. Because I’ll be with them, and I’ll be, Ah, dysregulation, I’ll say, okay. What do we know about dysregulation? Where do we need to go? And I say, well, we can do a bit of therapy or we can go to nature. And they said, okay. Let me just go down to the beach and have a walk. Fantastic. And then half an hour later, 45 minutes later, they’ll come back. So I feel so much better. And then I’ll say, okay. Tell me what was going on. It’s it’s over. We I’m very lucky that I catch, dysregulation live. It’s not like…

Jan Winhall:
What I see here in the way that you work is quite unique. Do you know that?

Trevor Rocca:
I know. I do. I do know that. Yeah. At times, I question myself whether it’s ethical. But as long and and and I’ll be totally honest. I question this a lot. Am I drawing the right boundaries? Are they my clients feeling safe with me? What can I do better?

Jan Winhall:
What I sense is that you in your coaching self, right, that you give yourself a lot more permission. And I think that coaching in a sense does give a lot more permission to, be in different ways, in different context with clients. Whereas psychotherapy has such a has had such a rigid really, rigid, you know, you couldn’t even go for a walk with your clients. They would think you were some wacko. It was just

Trevor Rocca:
Yeah. Yeah.

Jan Winhall:
crazy. So these are ways that I think, Polyvagal informed and really trauma informed therapist needs to be able to be bold and be doing things that are not necessarily what

Trevor Rocca:
is on the script. Yes.

Jan Winhall:
Yeah. And it and then it gets really like you say, you start to wonder what would the college say about these things, and how do I do this in a way that feels, you know, grounded and has integrity?

Trevor Rocca:
I’ll I’ll come to answer that in a beautiful way. Intentionality. That’s it. For me, the

Jan Winhall:
Yeah. What’s your intention?

Trevor Rocca:
For me the intention is for my clients to feel safe and to be able to process trauma in the way that they can. And I think it’s where I come back to say, like, when I when I question myself, I’ll come back and say, okay. What’s my intentionality within all of this? And then go to supervision asking….

Jan Winhall:
I love that.

Trevor Rocca:
Yeah.

Jan Winhall:
Also that you’re really acknowledging. This is something that I think, you know, in DBT therapy, you know, that people… Marsha Linehan really acknowledged that people need 247 support in the beginning of making profound changes, especially around dysregulation.

Trevor Rocca:
Yes. Totally. And Bruce Perry says this as well. It’s like learnig a language. How are we expected to learn Chinese or Mandarin and once a week?

Jan Winhall:
Yeah. No, I totally agree with that. I mean, I know the DBT therapist would carry pagers.

Trevor Rocca:
Yeah.

Jan Winhall:
When I was doing a lot of work, especially around addiction, people could text me 24/7, and they never ever they never took advantage of it.

Trevor Rocca:
Yeah.

Jan Winhall:
They never took it. It was not a problem.

Trevor Rocca:
I’ve had to, actually funnily enough, I’ve had to get clients of mine, saying, I need you to make contact regardless of what your day is like. I want you to reach out and say, Hey Trev, my day is going great. La la la la la la la la. I need you to do this. This is the basis of fundamental blocks of our therapeutic alliance. And and they’ll say…

Jan Winhall:
Right, that’s very important. And I think for us in the in this field and recognizing, you know, the importance of regulation, that we do need to really be bold in speaking up about these new models, and it’s one of the things I’m very curious about in exploring these days is how we take somatics and polyvagal theory and really take it to the edge of how we’re practicing and what type of change is that?

Jan Winhall:
So I think, you know, it’s a great conversation because I think you are being very bold in the model that you’re using.

Trevor Rocca:
Because I’m not I’m not

Jan Winhall:
But it reminds me of that recovery kind of model where people would, the recovery coach, would move in with the person. Yeah. Especially if you’re really trying to work with drugs and alcohol.

Trevor Rocca:
I’ve been doing this for now, all in all, 8 years in this practice, this approach. And I’m very lucky. I’m very grateful. I’m very blessed that I haven’t had a relapse on recovery. And it speaks wonders, not necessarily all the work I’m providing, but the sense of safety that they are in moments where, Trevor, I’m really having a really hard time, and they can be in the other side of the world. And they’ll still send me that message saying, I’m really having a tough day today, and I’m gonna go for a walk. Let me just text you later. That moment, that sense of accountability, but also not necessarily accountability because someone’s gonna tell me off. Accountability because someone might be able to say, I get you. I hear you. It makes a lot of sense. I understand where you wanna run back to those dissociative behaviors like addiction and substance use or even others. It could be any sort of addiction, sex addiction. I’ve had them all. And it’s all comes, it boils to, in that precise moment where they want that is triggered, they that sort of the neuroception, there is an element of not feeling safe. Let’s understand that a bit more.

Jan Winhall:
Yeah. Absolutely. Beautiful.

Trevor Rocca:
Yeah. It’s great to to to know. Yeah. I wonder sometimes whether eventually we’ll end up this will be the norm

Jan Winhall:
Mhmm.

Trevor Rocca:
where we see we do see clients 3 times, 4 times a week for the 1st 6, 8 weeks whilst they’re doing the the sort of but I think that there is a sort of under sort of undercurrent of fear of whether the client’s gonna become dependent on you.

Jan Winhall:
Yes. That that is a big one. And, of course, they do. I mean Yeah. Of course, they become dependent.

Trevor Rocca:
Yes. And I don’t see anything wrong by that, at least in my world, as long as it’s not for 20 years. I had a client of

Jan Winhall:
Exactly. It’s a reparentng. Right?

Trevor Rocca:
Yeah. I had a client of mine that had, been in therapy for 20 years. And every time she created a relationship, she used to move to the next one and to the next one and to the… she kept on seeking that exploration.

Jan Winhall:
A part of our job is to give that kind of paradoxical message. It’s like, you can depend on me, and you can depend on yourself.

Trevor Rocca:
Yes. Totally.

Jan Winhall:
And then it happens. And they they move away and go back and

Trevor Rocca:
And then they come back. It’s so interesting because they

Jan Winhall:
come back. And then they go, and then they come back, and then they go.

Trevor Rocca:
And then they’ll send you a card 3 years later saying, hey. I’ve just had a baby, and I thought of you.

Jan Winhall:
I know, I love it.

Trevor Rocca:
Like, oh my god. That’s incredible.

Jan Winhall:
It is a great one. And, you know, I don’t see many of them anymore, but you know, there’s still some people you just never let go of because you love it.

Trevor Rocca:
Yeah. And I think this is coming back to what you said earlier to adding to what you said, which is at times, we do feel like parents. Right?

Jan Winhall:
Yes. It is a parenting process.

Trevor Rocca:
It is. Totally.

Jan Winhall:
Yeah. Yeah.

Trevor Rocca:
Particularly with the developmental repair when we’re talking about attachment.

Jan Winhall:
And addiction.

Trevor Rocca:
Yeah. Totally. Totally. Totally. And I used to have a little quarrels with a with a very good friend of mine. She’s Maha I think you met in the Polyvagal….

Jan Winhall:
Yeah. Yeah.

Trevor Rocca:
She used to say, Trev, you need to go back to attachment. You need to go. And, obviously, I did. I did.

Jan Winhall:
Beautiful. Yes. I met I met you both in Potsdam.

Trevor Rocca:
Yeah. We we were there. Yeah.

Jan Winhall:
In that beautiful big room. Yeah.

Trevor Rocca:
Yeah. Wonderful. Yeah. We learned a lot. And coming back to what I said earlier about oxytocin with Sue Carter, that for me was another turning point in my career.

Jan Winhall:
Yeah.

Trevor Rocca:
The ability to be able to share that with my clients. Also, something I’ve learned in the last maybe 3 or 4 years, we are more exposed to knowledge. Therefore, I feel we need to up our game in terms of what we share with our clients from a neurobiological perspective. I will say to my clients, your hippocampus could have shrunk because of the trauma and this and that and read this book and

Jan Winhall:
Absolutely. Psychoeducation is a big part of the part of the polyvagal model and trauma.

Trevor Rocca:
Totally. And I think we need to be more aware of that. Yeah. Even though they might be dysregulated and extremely foggy, as we know, they they’re still I mean, they have this ability capacity to be able to learn. And that might be the key for them to start recovering, funnily enough. But it gives them purpose.

Jan Winhall:
Yeah. I agree.

Trevor Rocca:
It’s very, very powerful.

Jan Winhall:
Sometimes it comes from top down.

Trevor Rocca:
Total. Yes. Yeah.

Jan Winhall:
To go to the bottom up.

Trevor Rocca:
Yeah. Precisely.

Jan Winhall:
I’m moving more and more towards this kind of educational model.

Trevor Rocca:
I love this. Yes. Yes.

Jan Winhall:
Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, just looking at this intersection between coaching and psychotherapy, interesting, the way those two fields relate to each other. And so let’s go to… Sorry. Go ahead.

Trevor Rocca:
I wish co coaching was a bit more regulated, if I’m honest. I think there’s a we can… unfortunately, we don’t have the right skills or we haven’t worked on ourselves enough, and I really do mean this, I can’t take my client deeper than I’ve been myself. I always say the same thing. Ahmm. That could be very transparent. Counter-trasference happens a lot.

Jan Winhall:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Trevor Rocca:
As a therapist, if you’re not knowledgeable enough or at least aware enough, you will find hard hard relationships.

Jan Winhall:
For sure. Alright. Let’s go back so we can bring more people into this thing.

Trevor Rocca:
Go. Go. Go. Go.

Jan Winhall:
Conversation. Okay. Coming back to gallery review, everybody. So questions, comments, wanna share with us? Anybody? Elspeth, you’re waving your hand there?

Elspeth:
I yes. I couldn’t find I couldn’t find my little hand to raise. So Oh, okay. So thank you thank you, Trevor, so much. Really stimulating. And Jan described your approach as bold. And I think you’re actually on the cusp of something very, very important. But what I’d like to ask you is, if you were training people, how would, you how would you do this? How would you be sure that their intentions were coming from the right place and that there are safeguards there to ensure that…. I mean, we’re we’re working with people who are exceptionally vulnerable.

Trevor Rocca:
Yeah.

Elspeth:
And how how can we provide training that would ensure the intentions from the right place and people are protected? Because that’s…yeah. Mhmm.

Trevor Rocca:
So I think that’s a very, very valuable question. I don’t think there’s training for this. I think this happens with time. Like and I call it kilometers. The more kilometers you have, the more self aware you are The more self aware you are, the better you can show up in that model. But as you you at least for me, one of my biggest teachers have been my clients. And the reason why I’ve been able to find myself in this approach is because I’ve done a lot of work in that sense, but also getting to know myself, who I am within the therapeutic space. And I think that’,s I don’t think that’s, I couldn’t place this into a training.

Jan Winhall:
Well, I would say that we can.

Trevor Rocca:
Oh, really? That’s interesting. Go

Trevor Rocca:
on, then.

Jan Winhall:
And I would say that the training is the is my training. Oh, really? Okay.

Jan Winhall:
Not just me. I think there are other therapists who are saying you need to do your own work first.

Trevor Rocca:
Okay.

Jan Winhall:
So in the Felt Sense Polyvagal Model training, everybody has a focusing partner, and you do your own work first.

Trevor Rocca:
Mhmm. I love that.

Jan Winhall:
You take the concepts, Trevor, and you bring into your being and you follow your own process. And through the training, I see from the process recordings, people doing incredibly deep work of their own, and then at the same time learning how to deeply listen to their partner.

Jan Winhall:
And then in eventually that becomes, you then take that into your work.

Trevor Rocca:
But would you agree that in order to be able to do that, there needs to be a, I wouldn’t say a time, but a space where you grow before you you’re able to… so as a psychotherapist, let’s just say I qualify tomorrow, I wouldn’t be able to take your class because I haven’t done enough work with clients to see where I’m at. You know what I mean?

Jan Winhall:
But we start with us.

Trevor Rocca:
Mhmm. Okay.

Jan Winhall:
Start with us doing our own work first, and this is what happens in the beginning when you’re working, focusing with your partner. So we start with us, and I would listen to you and you would listen to me. And then, eventually, people start taking it into the work that they’re doing with clients. But I know how Frank Anderson is talking about this a lot too.

Trevor Rocca:
Yeah. Frank is very good.

Jan Winhall:
You have to do your own stuff first. And so that’s what I see in the training is that the first part of it, people are just working on their own, bringing the felt sense into their own body

Trevor Rocca:
Yeah.

Jan Winhall:
and following it along. And it it’s amazing. It’s magical.

Trevor Rocca:
Would you call it, though? What would you call my approach? And I’m very curious.

Jan Winhall:
Oh, your approach? Of you mean, like, the kind of, the amount of time that you’re spending with people in that kind of way. The way that I’ve heard about that or seen that is in recovery where where I forget. Is they call them what do they call them, Robert? Do you know? Sober

Trevor Rocca:
Sober Companion, isn’t it?

Jan Winhall:
Companion or something. There’s something related to what you’re doing that is like that model, right, where you’re intensely living with the person.

Trevor Rocca:
Mhmm.

Jan Winhall:
And, so I think you’ve got a really, because you’ve got a training in both therapy and coaching, you’ve brought those 2 paradigms together. In a way that I think is pretty unique. And that’s what I, I’m really interested in exploring it because I think we can they though both of those worlds can learn from each other.

Trevor Rocca:
Absolutely.

Jan Winhall:
And and it is bold. Right? Because you can look at that and say, my god. What’s Trevor doing? It doesn’t

Trevor Rocca:
I’ve had this

Trevor Rocca:
many, many times in conversation while with therapists. So Yeah. You live with your client? Is that something

Jan Winhall:
Yeah. But I also really I mean, it’s so clear the way that you’re presenting it, that you have thought so much about the intentionality.

Trevor Rocca:
Yeah.

Jan Winhall:
And, you know, what I always say to students is you can be bold and make a make a strategy and do it as long as you have a way of justifying it and explaining it and linking it to a concept.

Trevor Rocca:
Yeah. Totally.

Jan Winhall:
And you have done that. So I think that’s a really important part of it. Because if you ever got called to court, you can’t argue that this is common practice.

Trevor Rocca:
Mhmm.

Jan Winhall:
And we can’t as polyvagal therapists, if we wanna really be bold and start getting out there and doing things differently. We don’t, we can’t say it’s common practice, but we can come together in groups like this. We can start to talk about it and develop a practice, and we can say, these are the reasons why I’m doing it, based on this conceptual framework. And I think as long as you have that, and you do have it, it’s about attachment.

Trevor Rocca:
Yeah. It is totally.

Jan Winhall:
And it’s the thing that Marsha Linehan said. She said, you can’t expect people to learn to regulate 1 hour a week, folks. Sorry. And so DBT therapists carry pages 24/7. Do clients call them all the time? No. Because the boundaries are really clear.

Trevor Rocca:
Yeah.

Jan Winhall:
And, also, we work in groups. So I work in groups all the time.

Trevor Rocca:
Yeah. This is something that I have never done. I’m very excited about that.

Jan Winhall:
Groups and focusing partnerships. And what I would find is I would connect my clients up in focusing partnerships and I would’t see them again.

Jan Winhall:
They had they’re focusing partner. They would come back sometimes. If they…

Trevor Rocca:
For me, it’s quite interesting that you say that, but the only groups that we have within this region in Spain is only about recovery, not about trauma. And I think it’s a shame because, like, groups are so beneficial. At least this is what I’m learning now.

Jan Winhall:
Well, you have to bring trauma into the recovery treatment.

Trevor Rocca:
Yeah. But we don’t have to have recovery in order to have a group of people that are traumatized. And I think this is where that we we it’s quite challenging where you find individuals who are going through trauma, not necessarily going into addiction. Yet again, they need the support of a group. Why are we not exposing that?

Jan Winhall:
Well, that’s what we’re gonna start doing in the Polyvagal Institute,

Trevor Rocca:
Yeah we need to do that.

Jan Winhall:
with me in April, we’re gonna start doing these groups that are based on my new book, 20 Embodied Practices, and they’ll be for people that are working on trauma and addiction. There’s no, like, addictions over here and traumas over there.

Trevor Rocca:
Precisely. I love that. Yeah. We need to start pushing that sort of agenda as well. It’s very important. Yeah. And I what I’ve noticed as well, I’ve also noticed is that we have, as we are exposed to so much information, we have a lot of pseudo healing.

Trevor Rocca:
A lot of people doing yoga without intentionality. A lot of doing meditation without intentionality.

Jan Winhall:
Yeah Or mindful. Yeah.

Trevor Rocca:
Or mindfulness, precisely. And I think we need to start getting sort of the word out to say there needs to be an intention behind of it. Yes. It might not be every day, but this needs to be a thing where you go back and you say, okay. That’s the reason I’m doing I’m doing this because I’m regulating my nervous system. Why? Because my vagus nerve is dysregulated.

Jan Winhall:
Yeah. And I’m doing this without dissociating.

Trevor Rocca:
Precisely. Precisely. There we go.

Jan Winhall:
That’s great. I love this conversation. Anke. Anke is in Germany. Right?

Anke:
Hello. Is my microphone working?

Trevor Rocca:
Yeah.

Jan Winhall:
Do you know do you know Anke, Trevor? She was at Potsdam too.

Trevor Rocca:
Oh was she… I missed that.

Anke:
But we didn’t meet personally. Yeah. I just wanted to add, the deeper you go in yourself, which I did with Jan’s class, the more space you can give your patients. So I’m a … I’m not going into trauma work, but if I teach polyvagal with my patients, they eventually get into their own safety because we work on resources and then something really beautiful happens. They get in their own strength and then things come out. And I’m just a space because that’s what you do in that focusing partnership. So you’re just a space for that and they go their own way.

So it’s you just really give that big space for them and they open up. It’s just a beautiful way.

Trevor Rocca:
It’s fantastic that you say that, but the, what often pops up for me, and this happens in sessions, when I see my client trust in themselves

Jan Winhall:
Yeah.

Trevor Rocca:
And I notice that is so powerful. And I would be like, oh, did you say that again? Did you hear that? Yeah. And they’ll be like, oh, yeah. I said this. I oh my god. Like, I’m trusting myself. And that sort of strength to be able just to say, I’m owning this feeling. I’m no longer wanting to dissociate from it. I’m owning it, which is very, very powerful. So thank you very much, Anke. That’s very beautiful.

Anke:
Yeah. And the more human you are yourself, like you said, you need to be human, the more human the other person gets.

Trevor Rocca:
We need yes. We I think our within the next 10 years, hopefully, all therapists will be human. Less psychoanalytical perspective. I remember going to my one of my first therapists, and he was, he was, what’s the word I’m looking for is, like, analyzing me. Just quiet. I was speaking, and there was no sort of

Jan Winhall:
Blank screen.

Trevor Rocca:
Oh my god. And I remember one thing. I Jan, I got to the point. I was like, but are you here? Yeah. Are are you here? He said, well, this is my job. I don’t, I’m meant to be impartial. But, dude, I’m telling you heavy stuff. Can you just react to the heavy stuff? I’m sorry.

Jan Winhall:
We’re also the coregulation. So fascinating to completely break model.

Trevor Rocca:
Yeah. It was breaking the relationship to the point that I think I did about 6 sessions with him, and then never went back to him again. And I still occasionally, I bump into him in Gibraltar, and I still have that feeling of I can’t be myself with him, because it’s,

Jan Winhall:
Dysregulating

Trevor Rocca:
we need, yeah, we need to move away from that. We need to move from the place that like, I often cry with my clients because it’s heavy stuff. Right? And that’s okay to say that I’ve just become that made me really emotional. And I went to it. I did a couple of weeks ago, couple of months ago, I did the a modified EMDR with Laura Parnell.

Jan Winhall:
Mhmm.

Trevor Rocca:
And Laura said, Laura. No. Lauren. And she said, at times, she will sit with clients holding their hands while they are processing the trauma. And for me, that was sort of incredible. I think that’s the way to go. That’s what we need to…

Jan Winhall:
Of course it is. Yeah. Yeah. Michelle. Hello.

Michelle:
Trevor, I, am loving this conversation. I see a lot of myself in you. Our backgrounds are very, very similar. And our now and it’s interesting because I also have a very, very similar approach, although I don’t live with my clients. But I just had a conversation yesterday with the executive director of a it’s a charter school for the gifted. And so gifted kids, there’s a huge handful of autism, and they’re very mind ADHD, fast moving. But, to my surprise, the executive director, actually fell in love with Jan’s model of flocking and this need for regulation. And it got me really thinking about safety, and we actually landed on well, we met as the school really needs, like a DEI, but we don’t say that anymore.

So it’s a center for belonging, But that it’s really the teachers that have… the teachers need the training, that the teachers are, needing the regulation, needing safety themselves to slow down, and to then that gives the kids that sense of safety. It was this whole conversation. The fact that I had that conversation yesterday, it was just like, yes. Yes. So it was so lovely to hear that I’m not the only one out there with these ideas.

Trevor Rocca:
You’re not the only weird one out there with ideas about this.

Jan Winhall:
But it’s so important, isn’t it, that we have these spaces where we come together with the intention of doing good, safe work with integrity. And within that, let’s play with ideas. And learn from each other as different professionals, whether we’re, you know, yoga teachers or somatic body workers or, you know, psychotherapists or coaches. But to really, we’re all, there’s something very common there that we want to be able to have these conversations that feel safe enough for us to have.. And that we can have a common understanding that we’re doing good work, and our intention is to help people.

It’s interesting that you say that. Okay. It brings back to a point. Long time ago, I had a friend of mine who was very bold with me. He’s a psychotherapist. And every time we used to meet, we used to meet for hours, like, 3 or 4 hours and talked and connected. But the more knowledge I gained because I was reading so much in, at that time, the less connected I was with him. Why? Because all I was doing was sharing knowledge and not necessarily connecting.

And I think that we do this a lot, unfortunately, in our practice. Yes. We’ve got the knowledge, but the main focus of the therapeutic space is the therapeutic alliance. And we need to work on the connection Because the connection comes with a lot of love, coming back to oxytocin. Even in that space, it’s important that, yes, we might have the knowledge, but the main I think 80% of the work that we do is creating the first healthy relationship for the client.

Jan Winhall:
Yeah. And if we don’t like, at least like, if not love our clients

Trevor Rocca:
I love that.

Jan Winhall:
they’re gonna feel that.

Trevor Rocca:
Totally.

Jan Winhall:
Of course I’ve grown to love some of my clients.

Trevor Rocca:
Yeah. Of course.

Jan Winhall:
But it’s like you don’t want to say that. It happens all the time, and it’s part of what makes the magic.

Trevor Rocca:
Yeah.

Jan Winhall:
Because then you can say those things that are hard to hear to somebody and challenge them. Right? Because it’s not just about holding their hand. It’s about challenging people..

Trevor Rocca:
Yeah. And also having the, I think, the awareness of when to step in and when not to. So for me, what, I do this a lot with my clients, they might be going through a really disregulating moment whether they are really in tears and going through… and I will not intervene. And then when I know that that sort of moment that they are catching their breath, I’ll give that those words of support, or I’ll even place my hand on their shoulder and say, listen. We’re good. We’re here. We’re here. We’re back. We’re here.

And I think that’s where we can show kindness, but we also can be compassionate, but at the right time, I think it’s very important.

Jan Winhall:
Absolutely. Absolutely.

Trevor Rocca:
Timing is everything.

Jan Winhall:
Timing is everything. Yeah. And being quiet.

Trevor Rocca:
Oh, silence is. Quiet. Yeah. Yeah.

Jan Winhall:
The talk. We’re doing a lot of these days right now. But yeah.

Trevor Rocca:
I struggle with this a lot, actually. I found myself, I had, I’m never gonna forget this. I had a therapist of mine. Her name is Phyllis, and she said, I create safety with my clients with the silence or in the silence. And I was, oh my god, it’s because you’re not asking them to change, they can be themselves completely. And that really changed my perspective on silence where I wanted to fill in the gaps. Right? It’s like

Jan Winhall:
Yeah. Yeah. Right.

Trevor Rocca:
There will be more there will be more. What else? What else?

Jan Winhall:
Okay. Let’s try and get 1 or 2 more. Eric. Hello, Eric. Hi, Eric Timm. How are you?

Eric:
Hi. I’m well. Can you hear me okay?

Jan Winhall:
Yeah. We can hear you.

Eric:
I’d like to take it back to half an hour ago. You were talking about addiction as a survival strategy.. And that we need to be seeing that in that context. And then Jan said something about the meaning of events. And I think that events are facts that happened, and we make meaning of those events. And what comes out of our mouth when we describe those meanings is a narrative. And, I’m in therapy, and I’ve heard myself saying, like, I don’t know what’s happening to me, but I need an effing narrative. And my therapist sometimes responds is like because we’re Montreal, I’ll hear something like. It… this doesn’t go through your head,, as if, like, the narrative, like, doesn’t matter. It’s, all about feelings. But I can’t figure out what the hell my feelings are about if I don’t have a narrative. And I and then just a minute ago, you were talking about reading, and, you know, boning up on things, which is also sort of understanding. Right? Like, the more complex our narrative, the more complex our understanding. And I just think it’s really important to stress that there’s this false dichotomy between thought and feelings that’s floating around out there. And, it’s not the only thing happening with my therapist. There’s lots of positive things going on, but, wow, it’s really frustrating to to feel like, okay.

I just can’t understand what’s happening here. Like, I can’t I can’t hook it to anything I already know.. And so I’m wondering if there’s you wanna just maybe say something about that.

Trevor Rocca:
I just wonder what’s the need within you to figure that out.

Eric:
Because otherwise, I just I’m just panicking. I don’t know what the hell is going on.

Trevor Rocca:
Okay.

Eric:
Why am I so angry?

Trevor Rocca:
I often say I and I say this a lot actually. It’s not the why. It’s what we do with what we have. You’re sharing the fact that you become panicky. What can we do in that space with what we have? And what we have is a panic, not necessarily finding the why it’s happening. It’s more of what’s happening here.

Eric:
Yeah. I don’t I don’t so much mean, like, the literally the why, like, that I have to now track it back to something that happened 30 years ago. I mean, just to get my mind around it. Otherwise, I’m just I’m just nothing but, like, feeling. Like, I’m just it’s all affect. And I have

Jan Winhall:
You’re flooding in that flight-fight place.

Eric:
Yes.

Jan Winhall:
Yeah.

Eric:
And so, like.

Jan Winhall:
Mhmm. So do you work in the body with your therapist?

Trevor Rocca:
Mhmm.

Jan Winhall:
You come into a place in your body where you like, what we started today?

Eric:
Yeah. I’ve got a lot of training and focusing and stuff like that so that… she doesn’t know much about focusing, but I can do that. So, and that’s where my narrative often comes from and stuff.

Jan Winhall:
Yes. Yes.

Eric:
But still there’s a sense of, okay. I got this. Like, okay. So that’s what this is all about. Okay. Alright. Okay. And it’s like, the vibe is a little bit no.

Eric:
No. Like, don’t you know, Eric, you’re thinking about this stuff too much. It’s like, oh god. I’m trying to understand. Otherwise, I can’t navigate.

Trevor Rocca:
I think that’s what you’re saying. You’re you’re trying to understand it, and I encourage you and I invite you not to necessarily try to understand it, but try try and deal with it with what you have. There’s a, Deb Dana says this. It’s called notice it, name it, and nurture it, and it’s the 3 N’s. So I go through this a lot because I struggle with anxiety at times, and I’ll be, okay. Notice it. Where do I notice it? And it could be anywhere, and I’ll be like, okay. What is this? One word.

Trevor Rocca:
And I’ll say, this is anxiety. Okay. This is anxiety. And then I’ll come back into my body and nurture it. And that at least for me, that really helps me massively. I don’t need to understand, or have a a long scripted narrative of what could be happening. At that point, what I’m trying is to just regulate myself.

Jan Winhall:
Well, I think there’s a difference too between at that point and then down the road.

Trevor Rocca:
Mhmm.

Jan Winhall:
So that point, that is, I think, what we need, Trevor, is to come back into regulating.

Trevor Rocca:
Yeah.

Jan Winhall:
The more that we visit that place, down the road, it takes on meaning.

Trevor Rocca:
Yes. Yes.

Jan Winhall:
Down the road, the context starts to fill in and it starts to which… which, you know, Eric, is very important. Right? It is very important to to make meaning out of our experience. But I think there’s a difference between managing that initial moment of overwhelm. Down the road making meaning out of it.

Eric:
Sure. But down the road could be in 20 minutes. Right? Like

Jan Winhall:
It could. Or it could be in a couple of months or even years if it’s really big stuff.

Eric:
Okay. Thanks.

Jan Winhall:
Okay.

Trevor Rocca:
Thank you very much. That was lovely. Thanks.

Jan Winhall:
I’m sorry Neil. We have to go. I’m really trying to stay to the hour so that we’re we have good boundaries for people. But hello, Neil. And it’s great to see you. I love that you come all the time and join us. Okay, everybody. Thank you, Trevor. That was so much fun. Wasn’t it fun?

Jan Winhall:
Right? It’s fantastic.

Trevor Rocca:
Let’s do this again.

Jan Winhall:
Yeah. Well, we will do it again. We have to keep talking too. Alright. So thanks so much, everybody. And, Riachan, we’re gonna meet for a bit. Right? Okay. I got a million things to do.

Trevor Rocca:
Okay, guys. Thank you.

Jan Winhall:
Okay. Thank you.

Trevor Rocca:
Everyone that joined.

Jan Winhall:
That was really great. Bye for now. Bye, everybody. Take good care. Happy holidays.