Transcript

Jan Winhall:

And that’s one of my favorite songs, actually, that India Arie song. It just helps us to bring in some good energy, especially today because although, one of my favorite people is Julia Samuel… and, you know, we’ve we’ve only really met really physically once, but just felt such a lovely connection…. but we’re talking about global grief, which is a really tender and very hard thing to be with.

So I wanted to bring in some light. So maybe let’s just start with, just a a sense of however it feels comfortable for you, you know, you might not wanna go too far inside, but just to feel into something that feels lighter or, nourishing, Something that helps you in the moment. For me, it’s partly just being here, all of us together, and actually letting myself open my eyes and see all of you And and really getting a sense of how more and more we’re getting to know each other and connect in different ways. And that sense of coregulation in our incredible community is such a source of nourishment, and we sure need it. So hello, everyone. Yeah. And we have, Rachan was telling me, over 700 people now that sign up to Embodied Dialogues regularly and lots more that see it on YouTube.

So it’s really wonderful spreading out these little tendrils. Okay. So let’s start with, Rachan we’re gonna spotlight Julia and I like we do, and then we’ll come back to to all of you. So you can keep your questions and your comments or you can put them in the chat, and we’ll come back to you. But first, I want to really welcome Julia again. Yeah. Because you were with us before. I guess it’s well over a year ago, I think, after we saw each other in Oxford. Right?

Julia Samuel:

Yeah. Yeah. It was.

Jan Winhall:

Yeah. And since then, so much has gone on for you.

Julia Samuel:

Yes. I mean, not in the level of the sort of collective trauma and grief that’s happening around the world. But last year in February, I had a fall, and I broke my shoulder very badly. And then that led to, a form of shingles that’s very rare, actually called Ramsay Hunt syndrome. So I had facial palsy. So my I still got a little bit frozen here, but half my face was completely frozen for about 6 months. I know. And, I still can’t lift my arm.

So the, I took a hit with a wonky face and a bust shoulder, but I, I got a lot from connection. That’s that’s the thing that really helped me.

Jan Winhall:

Mhmm. Anyway, what was so what was so impressive was how you shared what you were experiencing. You didn’t just disappear, which lots of folks would do. Right? It would be too much to…. because you’re very public. You’ve got a huge Instagram following. It’s big. And you’ve written 3 bestsellers and, you know, you’re really out there. And so, you know, many people in their nervous systems, they would need to to retreat or they would shut down, But you didn’t do that.

Julia Samuel:

No. I mean, the reason I didn’t was, I think, unconscious. And so what was conscious was I had a lot of podcast interviews to do, and 1 or 2 of them were were very kind of, breaking news stories. So I needed my kind of conscious thought when I talked to my daughters, because I do the podcast with my 2 therapist daughters, was I don’t want to be the story when that interview comes out, so I need to talk about it first. And so I was interviewed by my daughters about how I felt about having, you know, completely kind of frozen face and looking very different and in a lot of pain with a broken shoulder. So I talked about it. And I I felt I got an enormous amount of support from my following on Instagram and from friends and family. And so I think, you know, and I really do want to talk about grief and what’s going on in the world, but just from a personal point of view, the 2 things that come to mind right now as we’re talking, one is that there is I think illness has some shame involved. That somehow I failed. Somehow my body failed me or something is wrong with me. And I think shame grows in silence.

So I think it was a kind of instinctive response that I didn’t want to be ashamed of how I looked and I didn’t want to to to, feel like a failure because I wasn’t functioning because I, you know, I could barely walk. And then the other thing I think is something that I…. a term that I came to, which was that there was a kind of and I don’t know if people watch watching would agree. There’s a kind of tyranny of recovery because why, people want you to be so well. There is this thing like, oh, you’re looking better or, oh, are you better or when are you better? And it is really intended to with love and with healing, but it also is, like, oh my god, no. I don’t even know if my face is ever gonna recover. So I I can’t do it to make you feel better about seeing me now so that you won’t worry about me because I actually don’t know. And I… people said to me, well what would be better? And I don’t actually have a particular answer, but rather than saying I hope you’re better is, how are you doing? Is it probably an easier question? It’s more open.

Jan Winhall:

Open ended. How are you doing? Yeah.

Julia Samuel:

Mmm.

Jan Winhall:

Well, I love and I admire, really, the way that you processed it and shared it. And I remember reading something where you said, you know, so many of my followers share vulnerability with me, and I didn’t want to hide that from you.

Julia Samuel:

Yes. That is true.

Jan Winhall:

Yeah. So beautiful. Yeah. It reminds me of, you know, my somatic teacher, Eugene Gendlin, talked about the shaky beings that we all are.

Julia Samuel:

I love that.

Jan Winhall:

And, you know, we really saw your shaky being. You shared it. And in polyvagal terms, you know, you didn’t go to a dorsal shutdown place, which would not have been great in terms of what actually you’re describing helped you, which was social engagement and coregulation. Kindness. Yeah. Yeah. And it was safe for you to do that, to share that because your, community are lovely people that have been drawn to you and your insight and your wisdom and your gentleness, you know, and willingness to share your shaky being. So I love all of that.

Yeah. So here we are. Your, you know, your I guess, your real theme in your work has been about grief.

Julia Samuel:

Yes. I’ve got grief from death and also living losses. So grief from a divorce or moving house or a health diagnosis or, having estranged relationships with family members. So it’s both. It’s both dying and death, but also all you know, most of life is about connection and love and the other side of it, which is disconnection and loss. And the 2 are kind of inter interconnected with the two sides of the same coin.

Jan Winhall:

Yeah. Exactly. Your joy is your sorrow as would say. Yeah. And then there’s, you know, the grief of all of what is happening in the world and, the incredible pulls and pushes and, violence and scary stuff that I don’t know about you, but I’ve never experienced this kind of, level of polarization in the world in so many different places. Right?

Julia Samuel:

I haven’t. But, also, I don’t think, you know, you and I are kind of roughly the same age. I don’t think we had access to it even if it existed. And I think it’s it’s so much more visible and we have so many more opportunities to see it.

Jan Winhall:

Yeah.

Julia Samuel:

And I think the thing about the collective grief is, you know, even when we’re thousands of miles away, we are affected by it. It does, you know, it it does impact us, you know, at the moment seeing the fires in, LA, the bombing in Ukraine. I mean, there’s wars all over the world. And I think the thing that is really important is that we bear witness together and we name the loss together and what that means. So what it will mean individually will be very unique and ourselves, you know, where it’s different on the inside as we look on the outside. So it’s highly personal, but there is a kind of shared acknowledgment of that this is, you know, a very difficult loss. It’s a very difficult time. Because, of course, if we, pull into ourselves and withdraw, which you can shut down, that from the polyvagal perspective means you disconnect from yourself, and then you have no capacity to connect to others. And the biggest single protector when we’re grieving is people.

You know, people need people in good times. People really need people in bad times. And that it is love, you know, in its broadest terms that enables us to survive. You know, love is not, a quick fix, and it’s not simple, but it is really the way that we survive the greatest difficulty.

Jan Winhall:

Yeah. I think that’s very true. Love and connection and community. Right?

Julia Samuel:

Yes. But that and it but it requires, I think, a lot of psychological, sophistication in a way to allow people to have their own particular way of expressing their grief because they will be informed by their culture, their history, their upbringing, their own story, their DNA, and the support they’ve had at grief at their times. And I think what often happens is that we want to see how we’re feeling in other people, and then we can polarise when we see others don’t do what we’re doing. You know, that happens very commonly in families. So in family systems, a grandparent, a parent, a sibling dies, and within that family system, it’s most likely that people will grieve very differently from each other. Some will be very expressive and tearful. Some will retreat. Some will pretend it’s not happening, and that can cause, such conflict in a family like there’s one approved way.

And, actually, what we want is to name that however you’re feeling, there is no right or wrong way. But what actually matters is that we acknowledge that we allow ourselves to feel all the pain of it. Pain is the agent of change, and grief is naturally adaptive. So if we allow the pain through our system, however, that shows up for us individually and we find ways of naming it and expressing it, that is how we adapt. And that is how we then kind of in the dual process of acknowledging the pain, feeling it, we can then shift our attention and turn to the light and turn to hope and turn to restoration where we can get the wherewithal to come back and do the grief work. So it’s the movement between the 2 that supports us.

Jan Winhall:

Mhmm. Yes. I think that’s so true. And it’s so interesting when we think about the nervous system and how, you know, each of those responses, you know, the sympathetic response of being overwhelmed with the grief or also getting really angry. Right? Some people, it’s just so hard to be the shaky being and they go to fight. And then for others, it’s it’s shutting down and dissociating because it it just feels too overwhelming. And so…

Julia Samuel:

Can I pause…?. So that’s absolutely right. So fear, anger, rage, trauma are not naturally adaptive. And when you’re in that sympathetic state and that heightened state, you don’t process grief because it’s there, as you know, I bet far better than me, to survival. So that you need to find ways of dying you know, that’s code red. The fire alarm is on. And, you know, as you and you can explain this from a polyvagal, perspective more clearly, but it’s self fulfilling.

So the more you feed it, the the stronger it gets and the more disconnected you get and more polarised you get. So that if we recognize that and have systems, and I call it like changing gear from 4th gear down to the first gear, then you’re ventral vagal, and then you can use your wise mind, use your hippocampus, choose what you do, but, also, you can get enough connection to others to dare to feel and express the pain. That’s when you’re adaptive. So it is… it’s this paradox. It’s by allowing ourselves to feel the pain that we heal. But when we’re in the kind of heightened state of pain, that isn’t adaptive. That isn’t healing.

So it’s recognising that you have to come back into your body, and it is very embodied that then you can process it. And then you’re likely to get up, you know, you move up with that.

Jan Winhall:

Yeah. And I I think I would say it a bit differently. So I would say that those dysregulated responses are adaptive when we don’t have enough safety. So if I’m in an environment where, I don’t feel in my body that it’s safe to connect with my feelings, then going to fight or flight or shutting down is going to help me to survive. But as you’re saying, it’s not gonna help me to thrive and I’m not gonna be able to heal from the grief. I’m gonna get stuck.

Julia Samuel:

Yes. I completely agree. I guess what the image that I was working is that this has happened after the threat has actually happened. People get locked in the emotional experience of it when they’re no longer actually…

Jan Winhall:

They’re triggered. Yeah. Exactly.

Julia Samuel:

And it’s that paradox of grief. You know, why would I ever want to let myself feel the pain? Because why would I turn towards it? I want to turn away from it and use everything in my armory to block it, whether it’s alcohol or busyness, looking at scrolling on Instagram, whatever it is. But actually, it’s the paradox of turning towards it, allowing yourself to feel it and name it. That is what allows you to heal. Yeah. So it’s counterintuitive.

Jan Winhall:

Yes. Yeah.

Julia Samuel:

And counter-cultural because, you know, we want fixes.

Jan Winhall:

And we’re socialized not to feel it. Right? We’re socialised to carry on and be little soldiers and stiff upper lips and all of that.

Julia Samuel:

Yes. Very much so. But also I was thinking that I think there’s an educational piece, about what grief is that, you know, grief is chaotic. It’s a very small word that describes a whole world of different feelings, which are both embodied and, thoughts and and processes and behaviors, which we don’t understand. So often people feel like they’re getting it wrong or they have a time frame that they should get over it by now. Or with the collective story, I think people feel, how come I feel guilty about having a nice day when I’m hundreds of miles from where where all the tragedies are happening. But actually, it’s allowing yourself to be impacted by them. And I think one of the things that helps us move, which is, you know, why I was very keen to do this seminar is the collective, healing from rituals.

Like, developing rituals together where people, a kind of disparate group of people come together to bear witness, to build connection with each other, to bond with each other, and the warmth of being together gives us, I think, a boost and a kind of meaning that we are sharing something because grief is very chilly and isolating and it’s disconnecting. So I think we lose a lot when we don’t, really create rituals collectively that acknowledge and bear witness to these different terrible things happening around the world.

Jan Winhall:

Yeah. I think that’s incredibly important. Yeah. Rituals are comforting, aren’t they? There are ways of… it’s like there’s a lot of predictability in a ritual, And that predictability helps us to feel safe, and that we can count on something. You know? That it’s familiar.

Julia Samuel:

Exactly. And sort of, you know, funerals, are the most common that we think of around around death. And, you know, there’s stones here in the UK. There’s one, called, Lanyon Quoit, q u o i t, which is 4000 BC. So it has been a basic human response to death to find something, because grief is invisible. So stones are often often part of the grieving process, whether it’s a headstone or stones on the grave or, you know, having stones. I always talk to children about taking stones in their pockets. That they make invisible what is invisible, but also it marks and acknowledges the death.

So that this is the place where this person died. And, you know, we have that in I’m thinking in London, we have the cenotaph that marks, you know, the First World War. We have them all over, but I think we kind of walk past them without recognising that they have a very important psychological role.

Jan Winhall:

Yeah. I think that’s so true. So how, you know, we’re… I think both both of us are really resonating and so many of us in our community with this really important shifting of paradigms into welcoming what’s uncomfortable as Gendlin would say. Welcoming the grieving and as you’re you’re speaking about how I remember you said something like the grieving is the therapy.

Julia Samuel:

Yes.

Jan Winhall:

Yeah. And this is just so the opposite of what our culture, white culture in particular, cuts us off so drastically and harshly against embodiment, and it’s a terrible thing. So we’re really kind of working hard. I know lots of us to to bring this message, right, that we must come back into our bodies. We must allow feelings to flow. We must connect with each other.

Julia Samuel:

I think and connecting with each other within an embodied state is where everything happens, I think. And also we, you know, we feel so much and we feel powerless because it is too much. And then we want to kind of yank control because it feels too much. And so it’s a really difficult kind of landscape to emotionally let yourself feel. And I think often, I think it it often feels entangled like a very messy room, you know, that you don’t know if you pull out one thing, the whole thing is going to fall apart. And that what you don’t know where to start. And I think one of the things that can help is if you focus on one small thing or you create one 5-minute time frame where you focus on internally or in connection with another or you journal or you draw a picture or you do a ritual. So you rather than it being this overwhelming thing, you reduce it to one small thing. I’m feeling sad. I feel confused. You name it. And then you you work with one small thing in this amount of time, and then you can build on that.

Or what am I gonna do in the next half an hour? So you kind of give yourself an external structure that can contain, what feels limitless, which is limitless, really.

Jan Winhall:

Mhmm. So we’re talking a lot about containment, little moments where we can practice really with intention. Right? How to let how to titrate these different nervous system states and to recognize that we’re gonna shut down. Because when you think

Julia Samuel:

That’s not a bad thing.

Jan Winhall:

Yeah. It’s a good thing when we’re overwhelmed, we need a rest. They’re all… all of those nervous system states are very helpful. As long as we don’t get stuck. Yeah.

Julia Samuel:

I think the thing is the moving. And also having the signals and the sort of, insight to know where you are within your own nervous system. So for me, I know I clench my jaw. And I and I hunch my shoulders.. So the minute I do that and recogmizing parts of me.

Then I you know, in somatic experiencing in a way, I I can then allow something, another process begins. But I can have literally a toothache because I haven’t noticed that I’ve been clenching my jaw for hours because it just becomes so familiar. So I have to kinda stop, take a breath, like, do a kind of bod, map and then see, oh hold on.

Jan Winhall:

And that’s where, you know, having these daily practices is so important because if you check-in with your body and you make that a practice every day, not only are you building those neural pathways and more ventral vagus, but it prevents you from getting into that locked trauma feedback loop for days on end because you’re checking in with yourself. And in our focusing community, we do that in partnerships, which is really helpful because then when you’re sitting there like this in this sympathetic state, your partner can say, Jan, woohh! I need you to take a breath. Yeah. So a lot of intentionality. And and, also, you know, I think one of the difficult things too is when we were speaking about families and how when we are, you know, struggling with how to manage all of these things that are going on in the world. I mean, today, I just heard on the news that now the peace talks in Gaza between Gaza and Israel have been disrupted again, and here we are again. And so to be able to have these conversations too with other people and and be really aware of where we are in the nervous system states. Right? Because oftentimes people fly up into fight and get really explosive, and other people really shut down and then run away.

And we lose each other in these polarizations at a time where we really have to work hard at listening to ourselves and each other. Right? Because we’re not gonna get out of this without that.

Julia Samuel:

No. I think that’s true. And where that takes me and and and I don’t know if this would fit is that in a in another way, that’s where community where you can create something like, you know, the song that you had at the beginning is so beautiful, I Am Light, of people singing together so that you create a place where the, you know, that people have a role, you know, but the harmony of singing together, you know, all the evidence around choirs. Or we have here something called parkrun. I don’t know if you have the same in the US where people on Saturday morning go to a park and they run the 5 km together. So it’s like bodies together, you know, movement really, really helps.

Jan Winhall:

Yes. It does.

Julia Samuel:

With others, really helps. Walking with friends in silence, occasionally talking. You know, that’s why pilgrimages, again, for centuries have been such important parts of being, you know, aspects of being human of of marking both our loss and our life. But I think that thing of coming together and doing something that isn’t discussing what’s going on but sharing our experiences together, is very beautiful. I think music is the most natural place for it.

Jan Winhall:

Yeah. And we’re talking here about process. Right? Like, how to be in process with each other, these ways that really activate a lot of juicy ventral energy and where we’re not talking about content. And actually, yeah, in Vegas adventures that I’m doing, is it next week, I think, where we’re looking at, you know, spirituality and finding whatever that means to each of us as a person and how to share those practices together, those rituals, and move away from such content driven exchange and more into the this experiencing. And I I think this is just vital right now. Right?

Julia Samuel:

Because the minute you get into the content, I think you tend to get into I’m right, you’re wrong, or I want you to take on my view. And, you know, there are multiple views as there are multiple people. Yeah. And so if you can take that off the table, I love the, was it you call it Vagal Adventures?

Jan Winhall:

The Vagus Adventures. I’m doing a series of 3. And then the first one is is on polyvagal theory and spirituality. And Steve Porges actually wrote a very interesting article. If anybody knows… Robert, you know that article that Steve wrote on, contemplative practices. Anybody can put that in the chat for people. It’s a beautiful article. And, Julia, I think you would love it.

It’s very interesting because he’s talking about how all of these old rituals and practices that you’re speaking about, Julia, are in our sort of more rigid white culture, we look at this kind of was, you know, suspect. Right? Like, what are these people doing running around chanting and doing weird things? And and what Steve is saying is that all of those practices really boost ventral energy, And they’re not they’re not states of dysregulation and craziness. They’re actually practices that really connect in with that ventral branch of the vagus nerve and connect us up into social engagement. And and so, you know I…

Julia Samuel:

It gives us meaning, the collective meaning. And it may be individual meaning differently, but I think that the soul energy of singing, lighting candles, community gives you a sense of meaning that is also very kind of ventral vagal, isn’t it? It calms you down. And, you know, all the research shows that if we can make meaning from adversity, our outcomes are much better.

Jan Winhall:

Absolutely. Absolutely. So yes. So we have to really embrace, I think. And and and I love that when you talk about educating because I’m moving more and more towards educational models. I think there’s so much that we can benefit from in terms of sharing this kind of information, particularly about how bodies work. And, you know, coming back into the body and really healing from this split that happened that has really devastated us, I think. As a culture. Yeah.

Julia Samuel:

I agree. And but I think the other, maybe it’s saying the same thing but I heard someone say once, heaven is being a memory to others. And I think the other part about loss, I think this is different maybe to do with collective grief. But I think part of grieving a person, someone that you know that you miss that you’re grieving and mourning, is that it isn’t about forgetting, it’s about remembering. And that idea of heaven is, you know, remembering the other person, is that, is being a memory to others, is continuing bonds, that the person may have died, but the love for them never dies. That the love continues and that you can find touchstones to the memory that, again, are embodied. So it can be you make their favourite curry or you’d go on the walk you always did with them or you wear a piece of jewelry that was theirs or keep something of theirs in your pocket so that

Jan Winhall:

…can’t see, but this is my friend who died, yeah.

Julia Samuel:

Yeah. So you can have a picture, photo album. And those memories and the connection and the love of that never dies. That stays in you and influences. And I think that often we forget that with loss, you know, that we that, and I don’t know if you can link this with collective grief in that how you grieve makes an an enormous impact on your outcome on a daily basis, but also your relationship with the person that died.

Jan Winhall:

Yeah. And the intergenerational grief that our bodies carry.

Julia Samuel:

Yes. So we don’t repeat the patterns from generations.

Jan Winhall:

The grief that we carry in our bodies from losing that connection to those rituals and practices. But that’s what we’re gonna talk about a lot in the, the Vegas Adventures on spirituality. And these beautiful ways that we’re now coming back more and more, We’re learning about this. Right? The power of somatics of coming back into the body and that we can carry people. And, you know, that’s all part of that message of like, oh, well, somebody died. You have a funeral. 3 days off work, and now you’re back and everything’s fine. And in that kind of concept, I remember feeling like, well, I have to keep remembering Jill because otherwise, it’s like I’ve forgotten her, and I’ve abandoned her.

And finding a way that is really welcoming and saying, yeah, and it’s it’s going to feel painful. I 20 years ago, she died, and I can talk about her with her kids and I still cry. It comes right away. And I love that.

Julia Samuel:

And they will love that.

Jan Winhall:

Yeah. And they love that. They snuggle into me because they feel how I carry her in my body. And so instead of thinking, oh, this has to stop, it’s like, yes. This is wonderful.

Julia Samuel:

And that connects to that thing. Maybe this is peculiarly English about I don’t want to upset you by talking about it. And I think that links to the embodied collective brief too is that, you know, I don’t want to upset anybody. I’ll just kind of manage myself on my own. And, of course, you upset everybody far more because A) people can tell that you’re dysregulated, but they don’t know what’s going on. But also, you know, all the people that are grieving has told me, you can’t upset me more than I already am. You know, I I miss this person every minute of every day. You actually upset me by not talking about them.

Jan Winhall:

Exactly.

Julia Samuel:

Grief in a way compels us to love more, not to love less. It’s honoring them in loving them and showing both the depth of our loss, but also the depth of our of our love. And so it kind of invites us to dare to love more. But when we retreat and hide into it, we then, you know, particularly if it’s dorsal, we get frozen and then we then we kind of narrow so much, we can’t connect enough. It disconnects us.

Jan Winhall:

It’s one of the really tragic things about whiteness. Lots of work to do. Shall we come back? The, the chat is very busy. I can see people in there asking and chatting away. Shall we come back, Julia, and give our, community some time with you?

Julia Samuel:

Yeah. Sure.

Jan Winhall:

Rachan, do you wanna bring us back to the big group? There we go. Hello, everybody. So anybody like to share comment? I saw lots of things going on in the chat. How are you all doing out there with Global Grief? Kathleen is kind of hanging in a little bit. Yeah. Do people feel you feel that in your body? Hi, Elspeth.

Julia Samuel:

Are they are people asking questions verbally or by text?

Jan Winhall:

You can ask them by raising your hand and just coming and joining us. I can also have a look in the chat and see what people are saying.

Robert:

I think Elspeth raised her hand.

Jan Winhall:

Oh, did you, Elspeth? Okay. Come on up.

Elspeth:

Thank you, Jen, and thank you, Julia. That was very, very I was going to say thought provoking, but that kinda misses the point. But when when you first both of you first started to speak, what I was hearing was, intention and agency. And what went through my mind was and it shifted towards the end, so I just want to comment on the whole shift for me. So intention and agency. And what was going through my mind was what happens when we’re, considering children who have less agency and may not be so able to engage in intention, and particularly what happens with adults who have developmental disabilities. And I think there’s two bits to this. one is what happens to them, but what happens to us when we don’t see particularly adults with developmental disabilities? They don’t have a voice to even help us recognize that they are grieving too, but we don’t see it the same way.

So that was the first part. But then you both shifted into this embodiment bit. Because my question, the first part was, how do we assist, support, help? But when you shifted into the embodiment, you actually were giving me the answers. So it’s about rituals and, embodying in other things that can come to represent, in some manner, the person, particularly the embodied representation of the person. And I think if we were I mean, I work with people with developmental disabilities. I think if we were to bring on board more of those sort of rituals because, again, they tend to be excluded from funerals. They won’t understand. Therefore, we exclude them.

So I would think to bring on a whole education about embodiment in fact, we may even learn from people who don’t use words to express themselves because they’re actually in their bodies all the time. And we don’t recognize that. But I think you have provided a stage to actually take that perspective and, you know, talk more about that. So thank you.

Julia Samuel:

Oh, I’m really pleased to hear that. Just to, respond to the the piece about children grief. And I think there’s still profound misunderstandings about children’s grief. And there’s this kind of false narrative, which is children are amazing. They’re so resilient. They bounce back. And they can bounce back if they are given the support, if they’re allowed to feel their pain, if the the grief is role models for them, if they’re given all the information, if they’re included in the grieving process. And often, we want to kind of protect children.

We, you know, we don’t want to upset them and so they get relegated to aunts or grandparents away from even now going to funerals or having the opportunity to see the body and say goodbye. And so my kind of main ask of people or invitation of people is children need the same invitation as adults but in age appropriate language, and children learn to grieve by observing the adults around them. And so often the sort of metaphor for children’s grief is jumping in and out of puddles. And, actually, I think as adults, we become much more childlike rather than adults. So if we can allow ourselves to be childlike and jump in the puddle, be upset, have a tantrum, you know, lose it or however we express it, and find a way of expressing it, and then jump out of the puddle and be okay and get a task done, talk more coherently, have a break, do something that feeds our soul, gives us joy, then we can do and go back and do the lost work. I think often with children, people pull them towards them, go, no. No. Don’t cry. Don’t be upset. It’s going to be fine, Rather than let them do the very necessary kind of breathing process.

Elspeth:

Thank you. Thank you very much.

Julia Samuel:

And I think play rituals are very important for both children, adults, and people with learning disabilities. Words often fail us.

Jan Winhall:

Neil. Hi, Neil.

Neil:

Hi. I got the impression that, you know see, I don’t think it’s about intentionality. I I think that contradicts polyvagal thinking in a sense because our states, whether they be sympathetic, adrenal, dissociated, and withdrawn, or socially engaged are adaptive states according to what we are actually processing. And I think as a part of that, I think part of deep listening involves a curiosity and a willingness to embrace our high states of disagreement, of high sympathetic adrenal outburst, And to be able to be potentially resilient enough to take that in beneath the words. And, I just I I always go back to this thing. I think there’s too great a, compulsion to quickly to go back into a ventral state to name it.

I don’t think it’s about naming it. I think it’s about presencing with where we are and to have slowly the capacity and the resiliency to be able to acknowledge beneath the words and then that takes away much of the shame and the blame because we are felt in terms of our listening, and we’re listening to another. But we’re also allowing for high states of of of sympathetic, you know, outburst and whatnot. So I I just wondering, you know

Jan Winhall:

I think what you’re talking about there, Neil, maybe is, ad that’s why I made that in the 7 f’s, the fired-up state. So this this isn’t about calming everybody down. It’s about though being able to be with and and to expand the window of tolerance so that we can feel intensely about what’s going on, because we should feel intensely about it. At the same time, if we don’t have the capacity to connect into some sense of ventral, then we’re not gonna hear anything. So I think it’s the more that we can be with what’s really intense because we’re in a blended state, the more we can really listen to each other and hold space for intense feeling, which is a part of how we need to respond in the world now because things are horrible. They’re terrible in many ways. So without some of that blending, that’s why fired up is so important because if you just go into raging, nobody hears anybody. And then eventually, the body shifts and shuts down into a dorsal because it’s too threatening.

But if you can find enough ventral, I can be with you here. I can hold this space with you, and I can hear what you’re saying. As long as there’s a measure of respect there that people aren’t hitting each other because then they’re just flying into rage. So I I think the blending is the key really. And I agree with you. We need to be able to expand that window of tolerance so that we can really be with lots of different a whole range of experiencing. That make sense? This is what Gendlin would call getting the right amount of closeness and distance from the felt sense.

Neil:

Right. I would just add one more thing. I think as part of that is the capacity to lose ourselves in that state, but to have enough to be able to during the unfolding to come back, but you have to be willing to lose. You can’t recoil. This is too overwhelming. But to have that capacity to lose yourself in that. And I think and then there’s a little bit of something that enables you to cushion the coming back to that and to hold it.

Jan Winhall:

Well, I think it’s a tipping point, though. Right? Because if you go too far up into flight-fight, the body will naturally, the nervous system will respond, by going to dorsal to survive. Right? So we wanna play with that place where you can come into lots of intensity, but at the same time, there’s enough grounding there that you can play with it.

Neil:

Right. Right.

Julia Samuel:

I think you’re both saying the same thing.

Jan Winhall:

Yeah. Yeah.

Julia Samuel:

I mean, I don’t think there’s… And my other I agree with you, Neil, because I wasn’t talking about time. I wasn’t saying, like, do this for 3 minutes and that for, you know, 10 minutes. It takes the time it takes to express and experience what you… the pain of your grief. But I think my fear would be is if you tipped, you know, in what Jan was talking about, is that also you could get into a psychotic state, and then that really terrifies you, and you don’t trust your body, and you’ll do anything to avoid that state. So that it is always, I think, isn’t it, Jan, holding onto enough, you know, whether you, you know, when I’m really suffering, I hold onto something physical that helps me feel grounded. So I have a stone that I use and I have a shell. So I hold them, and I stomp, and I rage, and I vent, and I do my thing. And I often do it outside in nature.

I find that is by far for me the most kind of both grounding and expressive. I don’t know. It just frees me being, you know, particularly in terrible weather and things. But having the stone, I use that as my connector back into, a call it you know, my ventral weight. So I think you can have a representation of it. I don’t know if that rings bells for you, but that’s what I do.

Jan Winhall:

Yeah. Great. Barbara.

Barbara:

Thank you. So many things coming up. You know, one of the things that I value so much, Jan, about polyvagal theory is that it helps me go underneath the words. Right? We try to use words to describe what’s happening, but the words are really up here. Even emotions are still kind of more closer to the surface than what’s going on deep in our bodies. And the value, I guess, of being able to go down, I mean, what you call the felt sense and those words are so helpful because, okay, what not you know, what’s that deeper sense, that state? And I’m using words to describe something that there aren’t words for. They’re really not words for.

It can be so profoundly, you know, reparative. And one of the things that was going on in the chat is, you know, for some of us, obviously, in terms of what’s happening in the world right now, whether we’re black or white or, you know, or a citizen of the US or a citizen of another country or or or Palestinian or Jewish, the the feelings of where we’re coming from are so intense. And, I mean, I’m old enough that, you know, I yes. I’m white. Yes. I’m part Jewish. I’m part Irish. I’m part English, but I, I as a as a child who survived World War 2, my body knows the pain of violence in a way that I’ve spent my whole life trying to, you know, trying to process, trying to make peace with.

And the challenges of of expanding beyond our group identity, I’m more than a WASP. I’m more than a Jew. I am a human being on this earth. Just because my face isn’t black, my skin isn’t black, does not mean I don’t feel for those people whose skin is darker than mine. Just because I was born into a fairly, well-to-do family doesn’t mean I don’t want and haven’t tried to find ways to bring the safety of of of financial support and well-being to others who are not as fortunate as I am. We need to be able to listen, you know, both underneath the words and also reach beyond them.

Jan Winhall:

Would you wanna say anything, Julia?

Julia Samuel:

I mean, you said it a lot and I really understand what you’re saying. And, the sort of power of recognising, intimate humanity, whatever our identity is as human beings and respecting and valuing each other and not using those identities as weapons against each other. And finding a collective narrative that we that we belong. You know, there’s more that we share as human beings and we’re more similar than there is differences. And you had a lived experience of that surviving in 2nd World War as a child, and it’s probably been the thing that has defined your relationship with yourself and everybody in your world ever since. So you talk from a very deep experience, and it feels very powerful.

Jan Winhall:

I think, you know, one of the things that, these conversations can be very tender and people can quickly, feel intense emotions around the content. And I totally I mean, that makes sense. But what I really want us to work on doing is to focus on the process in which we are having the conversations. So the content’s important, but the content will not move in the right direction without, I feel, some kind of agreed upon process of keeping people, safe enough, have enough ventral energy to be able to really deeply listen to each other. And so that’s what I want to really bring today is this sense of how can we be together and pay attention to the process in which we’re together. So when Julia, you know, talks about rituals, for example, and ways that other cultures have, BIPOC cultures that have been much more connected to embodiment, how can we get back to the body? Because the body knows how to listen. We know how to listen to each other through the felt sense, but we can very quickly lose that and unravel and get so stuck in top down arguments about things that really move us up into flight-fight, and then shutting down. So that’s what I guess I wanna leave us with today.

That there’s lots of stuff that got turned up stirred up. I read it in the chat. I’m with you. I’m listening. And I want us to really think about and feel into through the body, how we can be together in our community And really pay attention to how we’re processing and what’s happening in our bodies so that we can continue to really honor each other. And really try to move through a lot of profound complexity.

Julia Samuel:

May I add to that?

Jan Winhall:

Yes. Please do.

Julia Samuel:

We’ve only got a minute and I’m sorry that we’re not gonna be able to answer the people with our hands up. I think what comes up for me when you’re speaking, Jan, is that often in grief, collective grief, every kind of grief, we want to make sense of things. We want a narrative that makes sense because if we can have a narrative, it gives us a feeling of control. And the thing that all of these devastating losses and wars does for us is raise our powerlessness. That we don’t have control. And I think if we can, again, recognize the paradox of, that there are so many things. We will never have a narrative that makes sense, that we have to accommodate. And that’s a word I think that’s very useful. We have to allow lots of competing feelings, narratives, views, and then hold them, honour them within us rather than trying to kind of take one and make that the winner. Then we come from a much more open, place where we can connect with ourselves and other people.

Jan Winhall:

A much more open place where we can connect with ourselves and with other people. Beautiful. Thank you, Julia, for being with us. And thank you for the incredible work that you’re doing and, wishing you well in your body.

Julia Samuel:

Thank you.

Jan Winhall:

And to everybody. Thank you for coming. And, you know, email me, talk to me, but I really want us to take with us this idea, this embodied idea of working on process, how to be together so that we can honor each other.

Julia Samuel:

Yeah. That’s very beautiful. Thank you. And thank you everyone who came and listened and joined and contributed. It means a lot.

Jan Winhall:

Yeah. It means a lot. Always appreciate everybody coming. Okay. Be well, and we’ll see you soon. I think, what’s the next one, Rachan? Jeez, we’re so busy. We’re doing a special. Right? A 2-hour special.

Julia Samuel:

Wow.

Jan Winhall:

Polyvagal theory meets the 12 steps, is that right, in February? And

Rachan:

Yep. Also in February, there’s, Guy McPherson.

Jan Winhall:

Guy McPherson, the trauma therapist podcast? Huge.

Rachan:

Yeah. That’s on 13th, and then the week after is, the Polyvagal Theory Meets 12 Steps.

Jan Winhall:

Yeah. A 2 hour.

Rachan:

2 hour special. Yeah.

Jan Winhall:

Yes. Yes. Wonderful. Okay.

Julia Samuel:

Alright, everyone. Take care of yourself. It brings up a lot, so…

Jan Winhall:

Tender hearts. Tender hearts. Yes. Okay. Bye bye. Bye.